Pope stuff

[stillsostrange]

For all the things one might legitimately hold against Ratzinger, calling him a Nazi is pretty cheap. As I understand it, his involvement with die Hitler Jugend was not voluntary, nor was his military service. He deserted his unit in 1945. If I'm wrong about this, please let me know.

But if I'm not, chill out with the Nazi remarks. Feel free to attack him for any currently espoused beliefs or actions.

Comments

[britzkrieg.livejournal.com]

Agreed. Ratzinger was not a Nazi. His brief, coerced membership in the Hitler Youth is nothing to hold against him.

But he was no hero, either.

[wintersweet.livejournal.com]

As far as I can tell you're totally right. It's a red herring.

[stakebait.livejournal.com]

I don't see why it's illegitimate to have doubts about whether someone who deserted in 1945 did it out of conviction or because they were losing. It is true that membership in the Hitler Youth was mandatory. It is also true that the Hitler Youth did some pretty horrible things, and it's hard to know which members were which, but we do know not everybody who joined when it was mandatory was therefore unwilling and we can't assume he was, or that he did nothing but what he had to do or die.

There are also some situations in which I believe the ethical choice is to die, and that still counts as having a choice -- and it's my understanding that the Catholic Church shares that belief, although not necessarily on behalf of the same things.

He was a Nazi, just like a drafted soldier is still a soldier, though not in the same way as a volunteer is. I agree, it can be used as a cheap shot, but it can also be a serious question, particularly in combination with his other actions and views.

Personally, I don't see a statute of limitations on beliefs and views. I am allowed to resent, mistrust, dislike, and choose not to respect somebody for things they've done or said in the past even if they aren't doing them right this second, and all the more so if I have reason, in what they are doing right this second, to doubt that they understand why I find their previous actions reprehensible. I may choose to forgive someone who gives me reason to think they've seen the error of their ways, but they're not entitled to it automatically.

[stillsostrange.livejournal.com]

He was a soldier. Being conscripted by the Wehrmacht didn't mean being a member of the Nazi party, and I've found nothing indicating that he ever was. He was conscripted at 14. I also haven't found anything to indicate that he ever saw combat. Under the circumstances, I don't blame him for not dying.

I certainly resent, mistrust and dislike his opinions on many things, and don't like what his election might mean for the future of the church, but he's not a Nazi.

[jblade.livejournal.com]

I don't think we can hold that standard to anyone when they are in their early teenage years. In his case there would have been no great "fight against evil". His choice was joining the Nazi Youth movement, or have a bullet put in the back of his head. Even if he is the Vicar of Christ, he is still human and very few humans want to die.

[stillsostrange.livejournal.com]

But he did join the seminary after the war. For all I know it was the ugly things he did and saw during the war that made him go looking for God. He might not have claimed to speak for God when he was sixteen, so I won't call him a hypocrite for not martyring himself. He probably could have made a better choice somewhere, but I suspect most choices people his age had were ugly.

If he did really go looking for something better in the church, it's doubly sad that he turned to narrow-minded, small-hearted dogma. And since he became a powerful and influential member of the church, I do hold him accountable for other ugly choices, namely sheltering child molesters and supporting ideology that spreads AIDS and causes children to be born into poverty. Calling himself Benedict when he speaks so much ugliness is hypocrisy enough for me.

And I think I've used the word ugly way too many times in this post. Bad writer, no biscuit.

[jblade.livejournal.com]

See my other comment to Amanda. Dislike him for things like the pro-choice politican point you bring up and his Conservative Catholic stance. Those are enough for me to dislike him. However, there is no need to hit him over the fact that he was born in Germany during a certain time period.

[cpolk.livejournal.com]

good point.

but I was planning on calling him Pope No anyway.

[jblade.livejournal.com]

I agree 100%. So here is to the idea of a agnostic and a pagan sticking up for the Pope on something.

[stillsostrange.livejournal.com]

I'm not sure I'll go as far as sticking up for. :) But I think he should only be called a nasty hypocritical fucker for more recent actions.

[jblade.livejournal.com]

I agree. Rip him for his stances as the head of the Inquisition (I can't remember what the Catholics call it now) not fact that he grew up in Germany during a certain time period.